#33 – Using Differentiation to Capture More Market Share and Find More Fulfillment in the Process
with Transformation Catalyst Founder & CEO, Michèle Soregaroli
When Bernie Geiss told us about his business coach who triggered his company’s rebrand to better reflect his personal principles and values, we couldn’t wait to get her on the podcast. Michèle Soregaroli is as great as we expected…not that we didn’t already trust the recommendation and her long list of accolades—2011 Woman of Worth Mompreneur of the year, 2013 International Coach Federation Coach Impact Award, and being profiled in the national 2013 and 2014 Distinctive Woman Magazine…no big deal.
Michèle is the founder and CEO of Transformation Catalyst. Her company coaches and consults with entrepreneurs and business founders who want their business to embody deeper value, more meaning, and sustained impact. She coaches her clients to identify and emphasize the principles and values that are embedded in the core of their companies.
In this episode, Michèle starts by explaining what a differentiator is and why it’s important in a business strategy. She gives us some tips on how to find the language to describe your differentiator and what that process looks like. With all of this and much more, have a listen to learn what steps you can take to build a character of integrity in your company.
Michèle with her husband & the Co-founder of Transformation Catalyst, Brian Soregaroli
A few takeaways from our chat:
- The four forces of differentiation= platform, process, personality, and purpose.
- Identify your differentiator: Hold onto the strengths, anchor in the strengths, lean on the strengths, and identify what is valuable about your unique approach.
- Differentiation from a strategic perspective is 100% about integrity.
- What we want to do is be really clear that it’s not about being loud and getting noticed. It’s about holding a really strong and principled business that has a very solid core and has nuances that are unique because of the way they are framed and delivered.
- You can’t be average and generate an emotional response from anybody. Avoiding the middle of the road positioning may mean alienating some people who don’t share your values, but it will also create opportunity with those who do.
00:07 (Cory) — Hey y’all. It’s Cory here with the Social Entrepreneurship and Innovation Podcast hosted by Grow Ensemble—a digital marketing training and consulting company that helps better businesses and better business people expand their impact through expanding their presence online. In today’s episode, I’m speaking with Michèle Soregaroli, the founder and CEO of Transformation Catalyst, a certified B Corporation in Vancouver, British Columbia. They offer coaching and consulting services to business owners who want their business to embody deeper value, more meaning, and sustained impact. Michèle is a truly well-accomplished and well-awarded business coach. She was the 2011 Woman of Worth Mompreneur of the year, the recipients of the inaugural 2013 International Coach Federation Coach Impact Award, and has been profiled two years consecutively in the national 2013 and 2014 Distinctive Woman Magazine. Michèle was extremely generous in her insights today as we chatted about how impact-driven service professionals can differentiate themselves in their marketplace. Plenty of takeaways from today’s episode—one well-worth getting the notepad out for. And speaking of, if you are listening to the episode but want to follow along more closely, I recommend you head on over to grow ensemble.com/podcasts where you’ll find the show notes to this episode with Michèle as well as all the detailed show notes and resources that accompany all our other episodes. So once more, that is growensemble.com/podcast. Alright, y’all. Let’s dive into our episode with Michèle Soregaroli.
01:59 (Michèle) — I’m a master certified coach with the International Coach Federation, and I have been a professional coach since 2004. I work with entrepreneurs and business founders primarily on differentiation strategy and I work with them on establishing stronger value propositions and establishing some competitive advantage in the marketplace from triple bottom line perspective and a value perspective.
02:25 (Cory) — And so can you tell us a little bit as to how it is that you got into this work in particular with your own business right now and Transformation Catalyst?
02:32 (Michèle) — Thank you. Yeah, so I started coaching in 2004, but if we go back to my earlier career, I have been in services and entrepreneurial-type ventures for as long as I can remember. And from the time I was a very little girl, I’ve always been intrigued by the nuances of individuality. It’s something that has always, for whatever reason, caught my attention. I cannot explain why, but I’ve always interested in that. And so as that interest in that basic framework for my entire life’s lens, if you will, as that started entering into my career and I got into different businesses, I was in professional services from real estate advice, to financial advising to many it hospitality, and lots of different places where it’s highly competitive in terms of there’s a dime a dozen in these services businesses. And in those businesses, I kept noticing that all the advisors were selling the same thing and saying the same thing and telling the same story and positioning the same stuff.
03:35 And yet in my perception of them was that they were so unique and so different. And so I would see a hundred or a thousand different advisors, whether they’re lawyers or accountants or financial advisors or what have you, positioning themselves the same way. But I would see all the nuanced differences. So that was just a natural gift if you want to call it that. And from there, when I started coaching, I realized that I’ve always been passionate about the entrepreneur for so many reasons. I have such a healthy respect for the entrepreneurial journey and also felt that the entrepreneur is really at the heart of our communities where you know, it directly impacts the health of our family individually as the entrepreneur ourselves, but also for our teams and whatnot and our impact in the communities. So for me, the entrepreneurial journey has always been a place that I’ve felt very strongly about reinforcing and supporting.
04:31 So that was the beginning of my coaching practice. In 2004 I went out and got certified, decided that I wanted to work with entrepreneurs. That part was very clear to me. It took a little while for me to understand and position differentiation per se, because back in 2004 coaching wasn’t really a thing yet, so it took me a while to stumble around in my own darkness to try to figure out my own differentiating feature, if you will. But by 2007 or so, we had it figured out and we’ve been doing that ever since.
05:02 (Cory) — And what were those first few years like stumbling around in the dark?
05:08 (Michèle) —Well, they’re much like I share with my own clients. It’s really about noticing the unique things about yourself. I think one of the hardest parts about being an entrepreneur and when you’re selling a service as opposed to a product, it’s really easy to differentiate a product and to talk about the different nuances of product.
05:28 It’s a lot harder to talk about ourselves and to distinguish ourselves. It’s harder to put a mirror up. It’s harder to accept our limitations, weaknesses, boundaries, and even to acknowledge our strengths as something valuable. So I think that would be what I was struggling with in the early years. And I had my own coach, and I was working with my own support systems to help me sort of find my nuances, if you will. And I remember when I was working the early days with a coach and she just looked at me and she said, well Michèle, you’re a differentiation coach. And I said, what the heck are you talking about? I honestly didn’t know. So I thought, okay, well what does that mean? And I could see where she was coming from, but I didn’t understand what it would look like as a value proposition. I didn’t understand how to position that or even what it meant for me as a differentiation coach per se.
06:22 So it took me some trial and error, which is honestly what I talk about with clients. I talk about hold onto the strengths, anchor in the strengths, lean on the strengths, and identify what is valuable about your unique approach. What is the value that you bring uniquely through your own lens and filter and a business experience and life experience. And even the way you process your professional knowledge and your training is unique. So when we start filtering through that lens, we’re able to better identify the nuances of our offer that then allow us to position them more effectively, that then allow us to find clients that value that particular approach. And that allows us them to distinguish us from others, et cetera. So the early part of my journey was much like everyone else, just trying to understand what the nuances were by trial and error and um, with a bit of coaching help.
07:26 (Cory) — And so you specifically mentioned this like trial and error,–of that experience. Could you share a little bit more as to what that might tangibly look like? Is that, you know, something that you’re perhaps journaling on or is it very kind of crystal clear conversations you’re having with, you know, potential clients or where might that exist?
07:46 (Michèle) — Awesome question. Thank you, Cory. That’s a lot of what I do with clients now is help–the trial and error as a little bit of both experimentation and taking risks and also some anchoring and just willingness to be leaning into what you have awareness around already. So what that might look like is–so for me, for example, I believe that value’s at the heart of everything value’s at the heart of all sustainable success and I don’t doubt that at all. So if I believe that, then I can think, okay, what does that mean? What does “value” actually mean from my perspective? What am I talking about when I’m talking about “value”? How does that look for me? How does it manifest out in the world? How does that translate from what I believe into an offer, into an experience, into a deliverable?
08:45 Right? How does it move through? But we have to, we have to kind of play with it. So, you know, even in my early days as a differentiation coach, when my coach called me that out of the blue, I thought, okay. So I went out into my early days networking in ’04-‘05 and started saying, what do you do? Well I’m a differentiation coach. People would say, what does that mean? And inside my little voice was going, “I have no idea.” But my outside voice was saying, well, you know, this is kind of how I do it. And what I was doing was playing with ideas that were in my head in a very safe way because I literally had nothing to lose because they weren’t a client to begin with. And so I thought if I just try and put out there what I’m thinking, I will get responses back that either validate my thoughts and will help me see that I’m aligned with how I think, or I haven’t articulated it well, or the questions will tell me that that’s not actually what I mean, right.
09:48 (Michèle) — They’ll say, oh, do you mean this? Oh no, that’s not actually what I mean. When we first put on these overt announcements of our strengths, it’s a little uncomfortable, so we have a hard time sort of wearing it in a way that is both humble and with integrity and pairing that with strengths and value and confidence and competence and all that other stuff that has to be partnered with it. So blending that whole picture, it feels a bit like a costume at first. Even though it’s in full integrity, we’re kind of reaching into the dark, trying to find the little nuggets to hang onto that allow us to feel like our feet are on the ground. Does this make sense?
10:32 (Cory) — Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, I really appreciate the kind of course of progression that you suggested starting first with, you know, what seemed to be some foundational principles, you know, really understanding what is maybe you’re personal constitution or something like that and maybe walking it all the way back to what’s like that kind of tangible, you know, deliverable, the service and everything that you’re providing in your business. Does that, does that seem to kind of be in alignment?
10:59 (Michèle) — Right. So differentiation from a strategic perspective is 100% about integrity, right? It’s all about integrity. If you are differentiating your value proposition on a pure marketing angle, your clients and customers are going to get wise to you pretty quick and they’re going to figure out, you will lose credibility. So, your differentiation attempt will not be sustainable, it won’t do anything other than get a short term blip in your revenues and profits and good that you’re trying to do. So where you heard me say earlier from the time I was a little girl, I’ve been a natural differentiator, if you will, it took me a while to put language to that and put a value proposition around that. But my backstory reinforces my current story and it has possibility and people can anticipate what it might look like going into the future because I have been very clear on what I believe that to be, how I am aligned with it naturally, how I have built my expertise and credibility on that basic principle and grown my offers through that. Is that making sense?
12:12 (Cory) —Yeah. Well, but one thing I would be interested to know a bit more about, you mentioned the difference between the differentiating yourself on the basis of integrity and it means something of a marketing angle. Can you talk about those, those two contrasts a bit more perhaps maybe at an example or something?
12:30 (Michèle) — Yeah, so I mean very simply, when we often talk about differentiating, we are looking fundamentally for competitive advantage. We are looking to stand out. That’s when people come and they say, I want to differentiate my business. I’m like, okay. So I hear them and I understand what they want. They want increased market share. They want to be known for their value. They want to be understood by the market for what they are good at. But often what we try to do is what I call, you know, basic differentiation. You could walk down the street with purple hair, it’d be different. There’s no value in that, right? So what we want to do is be really clear that it’s not about being loud and getting noticed. It’s about holding a really strong and principled business that has a very solid core and has nuances that are unique because of the way they are framed and delivered.
13:31 So in a value proposition you might have, I’ll choose a law firm for example, you might have a law firm that is known for, if their nuances are known, they’re known for being very strong litigators and they will not back down and they will fight to the end and you can expect a long drawn out process of the legal dance if you will, until it’s, you know, met its final end. That might be one approach and if that is the overarching flavor of their brand and they leverage it, then they will be known for that. Alternatively you might have a legal firm that tends to lean more into a mediation approach where they like to be more collaborative by nature and they’re not looking for an aggressive fight. They’re actually looking for a friendly agreement and they will help the parties come to that. Very, very different approaches, very nuanced in terms of style.
14:25 They’re both bringing the same legal expertise. And this same negotiating fundamentals to the table. They’re bringing the same understanding of law to the table, but each one of them is going to attract a different type of client because of that nuance. So that’s at a very basic level. That’s what a differentiation strategy might look like. Now when we take that even further, those two firms would be–their communication out to the marketplace would be different. The design of their offers would be different. Because if they really lean into those nuances, they could have some significant fun that would get noticed, right? In branding and in client experience and in their purpose and how they do good. You know, the one who, the firm that is very oriented towards, you know, until the end fight to the win sort of thing. If they may have a very gorgeous growth for good purpose built into their offer, that is completely different from the other, which is more collaborative in nature, for example. Right? You can have a lot of really juicy fun with that if you allow it to present itself.
15:38 (Cory) — And so over the course of our conversation already, you’ve mention a few things. You know, you mentioned very early the triple bottom line and, and your orientation towards working with companies and entrepreneurs of that nature. I’m interested to know, you know, what’s drawn you that way. Not to mention, you know, for one that you, yourself, you and your company are a certified Benefit Corporation. So I’m very curious to know, drawn you that way.
16:05 (Michèle) — Thank you Cory. So interestingly, I grew up in a very capitalist environment. It was a very competitive capitalist environment also of its time just because of when I was a teenager and when I was influenced, but it never felt right. I never understood how business could only be successful by somehow hurting others. That never made sense to me. So as I matured into my professional career, that question lingered for a long time. As I began my coaching and started to think about differentiation from a business perspective, I actually felt that the key to differentiation was not just about making noise and being loud and getting noticed and getting more sales. But I thought the opportunity for a business to differentiate as the same way a human being with differentiate in terms of what’s important to that business and why it’s in business and what its mission is and what is vision of a better future would be, which was certainly a sustainable model because then the business would never be getting into trouble.
17:14 So I thought that just seems to make sense overall. So for early on, I always saw business really in B Corp language as: business should be a force for good. Really, because that’s what business is all about. Really. It’s about building communities and helping people get what they need to live a better life, right? That’s the intention. And for that we are rewarded economically in the traditional world. Well then I thought, well, if we look at economic rewards in business owners, how many countless examples are there of economically successful entrepreneurial ventures where the entrepreneur themselves is quite unhappy or unfulfilled? So then so I started thinking, okay, well how does that work? So how do we experience fulfillment? Well, we experience fulfillment by doing good. We experience fulfillment by being generous. We experience fulfillment by having a purpose and feeling like we’re making a difference in the world.
18:17 And these are very basic, fundamental human drivers, right? So I thought, well, if a business is making money and doing good and being rewarded for that, both in terms of the emotional feedback and also the financial feedback, that’s brilliant. So then how does that apply to a business in terms of its differentiation strategy? So I looked at businesses and thought, okay, so a business has a strong offer or platform, if you will, that’s very clear. And the audience knows what they’re selling, so their platform is good. If their processors are really strong and their systems and their, what I call their repeatability, or their consistency, is carried across all channels, that makes a business very viable for the long term because it’s got a strong offer and it’s got consistency and predictability built in. But that doesn’t differentiate a business anymore. At one time it did because it was hard to do.
19:18 It’s easier today than it used to be because of technology primarily. So then I thought, okay, so if a business were like a human and it had a personality and it really adopted the nuances and the uniqueness of its DNA, the business DNA where it might be fun loving or it might be more analytical or it might be a little bit more quirky, or maybe it’s a little bit more, it’s a little softer and compassionate or whatever. But if the business had these distinctive personality nuances to it, like you know, examples of that would be Ikea for example, has its quirky voice and you know, it’s got its personalities. So we think of Ikea as being a little quirky and Swedish and fun and interesting. It’s got a personality, unlike IBM per se. IBM has no personality, right? So the, I thought, okay, and then there’s the meaning piece.
20:10 And I thought, well, if then a business has a purpose that is overt and sort of the overarching reason the business is in business in the first place, then you’ve got a very strong differentiated company. You’ve got a platform, you’ve got processes, you’ve got a personality, you’ve got a purpose with those four core anchors, your business can continue to thrive and bring goodness to the world and continue to serve you. And there’s lots of room to have fun with it and grow as, you know, cultural influences change through time, but your offer can hold integrity without compromise, right, over time. So that’s sort of been at the heart of my, all my work with entrepreneurs now. I say, okay, so it’s important for business to be for good. Yes. Business for good is excellent. It’s got to be good for business too, right? And it’s got to be good for you as the entrepreneur and founder. And I think sometimes entrepreneurs forget that. They designed their business for good and they design their good for business. So their business stays in business. But I think a lot of entrepreneurs in their quest for both survival and goodness, they sometimes overlook their role in the whole thing and what they need to get out of it in order to be as truly great as they can be. Like their potential is 100% inside that little embryo there of their DNA. I love that. I just love that.
21:48 (Cory) — And so you’re, you’re starting to share a little bit on this now, but I’m interested, you know, as you’re talking about the individual entrepreneur, what do you think is commonly standing in their way, you know, as they, like you said, you mentioned a few points already, you know, and how they see their role relative to the business and its service. Can you share a little bit more on, on that as to what might be, roadblock or challenge that’s in their way?
22:13 (Michèle) — Well, interestingly as I talked about before, the, the four forces of differentiation, I call them just to review platform, process, personality, and purpose. Platform and process are easy. A business for the most part can follow formulaic advice, if you will, to achieve those ends, right? They can design a great offer and they can make their business profitable through the various expertise out there. The flip side of–just as it is difficult for a human. We all have challenges with being vulnerable in our unique self, right? We all have challenges with that. And sometimes we have trouble defining our purpose in a way because we feel like, I mean we’re small and I mean how can one person make a difference and that which is important to me and it might not be important to other people. And we have all of these stories around our humanness in that way and a business is no different and a business has more to risk, right?
23:14 So when a business goes out and tries to–and the fear of being vulnerable with personality and purpose–the fear of not being able to show the nuances of our offer or our what I call somewhat, you can have polarizing opinions or you can have beliefs that other people may not agree with. Right? And those things are actually part of differentiation when they are turned into value for good, right? But it’s risky to do that because of course we are going to alienate some of the market or turn away some of the market and entrepreneurs by nature are looking to attract more of the market. So the thought of turning away some of the market is terrifying. It’s very frightening. However, what I like to reinforce is that the only way to be attractive and compelling and exciting through your value proposition is to actually turn away some people because you can’t be plain vanilla and get an emotional response.
24:23 You can’t be average and generate an emotional response from anybody. You know, if you’re kind of a boring person, you’re not going to get too much excitement around you and if you’re a boring company, you’re not going to get too much excitement around you, right. It’s the same thing. So that’s one of the biggest fears is that the fear of loss as compared with the opportunity for gain and seeing what’s possible and really leaning into the potential because the potential is unknown. The fear of loss or the risk of loss is much greater, more identifiable, right? It’s more real, right? So that’s the first one. The other one is it seems like a lot of work, you know, bringing perhaps this personality and purpose into the business. I’ve got this other thing figured out, I know it’s working, I’m making money. It’s good, it’s fine. It seems like a lot of work to do what you’re talking about Michèle.
25:21 And my point is it’s not that it’s more work, it’s just more meaningful work. You’re doing the same amount of work, but it feels better, right? It feels good. And so it’s reframing the work and adjusting your offer and adjusting your brand and adjusting how you’re showing up in the world and being more purposeful in your intent so that the work that you’re doing, the same amount of work, it’s just got more meaning in it for you. So that’s a big one. Am I going to be happier? And I usually say, yeah, pretty much without a doubt you will be happier. You will be working harder possibly, but only if you want to, but at least you’ll want to.
26:03 So that part is a choice. And like, I like to say, you know, an entrepreneur without a sparkle in their eye, that just makes me sad because the entrepreneurial journey is a journey that not everyone wants to take. And if you choose to go down that path, gosh, if you don’t have a sparkle in your eye, that’s just sad. To me, that’s just sad. And then one of the third obstacles, if you will, is the risk of how the team will respond to that, right? Not only the market, but the internal team will respond. So you know, is the team going to buy in, are they going to like our purpose? Are they gonna align with this personality that we’re talking about and sometimes don’t. And all that means is that, you know, you will find those who do and there may be a shift, not always.
26:49 Sometimes it’s already embedded and it’s just not overt. And so it’s an easy transition. Sometimes it’s been hidden behind what I call a curtain and been muted, if you will. The differentiation opportunities. So if those have been muted and hidden by the entrepreneur, then the culture has developed differently. And sometimes that takes a bit of adjustment, but when you have teams that are buying into everything that you’re about and they’re on side, they’re not only more excited and more productive, they’re more loyal over time. And they also promote and endorse and create even more value from what you’re trying to put out into the market because they are a part of it, right? They’re not just the fulfillment and not just part of getting it out there, but they’re actually bringing their creative energies to it because they’re aligned. So it actually makes you stronger.
27:38 (Cory) — Wonderful. And I think this transitions us nicely to perhaps dive into now roughly 15 years into your current business after maybe stumbling in the dark for a couple of years. What do you feel like is different about your business now? You know, perhaps in the character of it as well as, you know, maybe some of the offerings and services that you provide for folks?
28:04 (Michèle) — Hmm. I think as with any young business, right? When we’re trying to get it off our feet, we tend to be inclined to, I want to say compromise on what’s really important to us. As a coach, it wasn’t about a compromising issue, but it was taking on clients that maybe weren’t the perfect fit, taking on clients that weren’t really well aligned. And so as the services business, when you are taking on clients that cannot get the best possible value from your offer, there’s huge risk in that. And it’s very expensive, which I’ll get into in a second. But so in the early days we tend to do that a little bit. We will do good work for clients, but maybe they’re not the best clients to get the best value from our work even though it’s good work, right? Because there’s not a good match.
29:03 So I would say that in the early days trying to find that match and trying to identify what that looked like and how it felt. There was a bit of that as well, rummaging around in the dark. Today, 15 years later, it’s just so much more fun. I work with, you know, my clients I know who can get the value for my offer. I know what their business needs to become and who they need to be as an entrepreneur in terms of their own mindset, what they can do and what they’re willing to do and whether they are in a position both mentally and physically and in their current circumstances, whether they’re able to take advantage of the works that I will do with them and really leverage it. So today, 15 years later, clients can do that. And I’ve learned how to make sure that we are positioned as a partnership to get the best possible value from the work we’re going to do together and not compromise on, you know, I’ll be able to do good work. Can they leverage it to the extent that I want to see them leverage it and you know, they need to be in a position to do that. And earlier I wasn’t as experienced or able to identify that. And today I’m much better at identifying that and helping clients get great value from our work together. And I just love my clients. So I get to work with clients that I love every day. So 15 years later I’m having a lot more fun.
30:27 (Cory) — Excellent. And so what’s on the agenda for the remainder of 2019 for you, Michèle?
30:32 (Michèle) — Oh, well, one of the things we have been doing for 2019 is we’ve started a new program called Growth for Good. It’s a coaching program for entrepreneurs only. And it’s really about helping entrepreneurs in a cohort of likeminded entrepreneurs identify not only how to do good out in the world, but also to create a business that is designed expressly to really fulfill them further and to adjust and tweak it so that they are experiencing more meaning. So when I say growth for good, that program is designed not just good for the world, not just good for business, but also good for self, right? Good from every possible perspective that you can think of. And that’s what I’m trying to bring together is a room of entrepreneurs, small cohort, 10 to 12 in the room who want to talk about good in the context of all those different perspectives and how to generate that. And I think if I can put out entrepreneurs like that every day, then gosh, our communities are going to thrive, right?
31:47 (Cory) — And so if folks are interested, especially after hearing all the wonderful value you’ve been able to share today, it might be a good fit for this style program. Kind of what stage of entrepreneur or perhaps business.
31:58 (Michèle) — Yeah, so the entrepreneurs that are going to be in this group, they already have an established business where revenues are not the key priority. As long as bills are being paid and you’ve figured out how to make money, then this program is a great program for you. If the entrepreneurs are still in that early stage of trying to figure out how to make money, then they’re probably too early for what the value that they can get from a program like this. There are lots of other support systems for that stage of growth, so I’m looking for those entrepreneurs. I’m also looking for the entrepreneurs who are driven and ambitious to create more meaning and impact through their business and to use it as a force for good. Maybe they haven’t even figured out how.
32:41 Most of my clients haven’t figured out how to do that yet. So a lot of our clients are not purpose-driven yet, but they’re trying to figure out how to get there, so that would be a great candidate for this work as well.
32:53 (Cory) — Excellent. Alright, Michèle, I really appreciate your time and before we sign off today, do you feel like there’s anything we left out anywhere else you’d like to direct folks to or share?
33:04 (Michèle) — I don’t think so. I thank you for the opportunity today, Cory. It’s really a delight. I really appreciated chatting with you. You have really good questions.
33:12 (Cory) — Thank you very much. Thank you very much. I really appreciate it. And thanks once again, Michèle, for taking the time.
33: 18 (Michèle) — My pleasure. Thanks for having me today.
33:21 (Cory) — Hey y’all. Thanks for checking out this episode of the Social Entrepreneurship and Innovation Podcasts brought to you by Grow Ensemble. If you loved this episode and you want to review some of the information discussed, you’ll want to take a look at our full show notes, transcript, and added bonuses, just head on over to growensemble.com/podcast. And there you’ll find access to the show notes for this show, as well as our now many others. So once again, that is growensemble.com/podcast to check out our show notes. Alright y’all, see you on the next show.
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